The Leslie F​lint​ Tr​ust

Present: Betty Greene, George Woods, Leslie Flint.

Communicator: Rose Hawkins.

George Woods:

Good morning.

Rose Hawkins:

Hello, Mr Woods. Hello, Mrs Greene.

Woods:

Oh, hello.

Yes?

Betty Greene:

Hello, Rose.

Hawkins:

How did you know it was me? I didn’t tell you.

Greene:

I recognised you Rose.

Hawkins:

You did?

Greene:

Yes.

Hawkins:

Oh, well I must have a very distinctive voice then, mustn’t I?

Greene: [Laughing]

Hawkins:

I didn’t know as how you'd be able to remember me.

Greene:

Yes...

Woods:

Oh we remember you...

Hawkins:

It’s a very long time since I spoke, you know. And I should have thought, you know, that you might have forgotten.

Greene:

No, no...

Woods:

We’d never forget you Rose.

Hawkins:

All kinds of people come to talk to you from week to week, you know. You must get quite a conglomeration!

Woods:

We’ve still got you...

Hawkins:

Eh?

Woods:

We were only playing [your tape] the other day...

Hawkins:

How are you getting on?

Woods:

Very well, Rose. We’re always playing your tapes.

Hawkins:

You always seem to attract a lot of people. Whenever you come here there’s always crowds. I haven’t had a chance to get anywhere near 

for ages, you know.

Woods:

You haven't?

Hawkins:

I haven’t forgot you.

Greene:

I know you haven't forgotten us.

Hawkins:

I expect your kept pretty busy, one way and another, with all your writing and all your recording things?

Woods:

We're very busy. We work quite late at night some nights - early in the morning sometimes, we work.

Hawkins:

Fancy you going on the telly!

Flint: [Laughing]

Greene:

Oh, you know about that do you?

Woods:

You heard about that Rose did you?

Hawkins:

I heard about it.

Woods:

Were you there?

Hawkins:

Oh yes... No - I wasn't there. I heard all about it though.

Greene:

Yes. We have to go on again Rose...

Hawkins:

Oh I say, you're getting quite stars aren't you?

Woods:

Well we don't feel like stars Rose.

Greene:

Well not from that point of view, I hope.

Hawkins:

I suppose you'll get fan mail next...

Greene: [Laughing]

Woods:

But so long as it's useful to help others.

Flint: [Laughing]

Woods:

That's what our chief thing is.

Well Rose, how are you getting on?

Hawkins:

Oh fine, very well indeed.... I've got no cause for complaint.

Pardon?

Woods:

What are you doing now?

Hawkins:

Well, I spend quite a bit of my time with the youngsters. I’m very fond of the children. I do quite a bit with them....

Woods:

Yes?

Hawkins:

...and I just like to, I don’t know, do all sorts of odd bits and pieces. I know it sounds daft to some people, but you know I like little quiet 

hours where I can sit and do a bit of needlework and, oh, read and all that.

Woods:

You do needlework Rose?

Hawkins:

Yes, why not?

Woods:

Oh yes?

Greene:

Are you still living in the same house, Rose, as you were when...

Hawkins:

Yes and I’m quite happy. I’ve no particular desire to move. Of course, you do get these people who are, all the time, wanting to get further on, and all the rest of it. It doesn’t appeal to me all that much. I suppose I’ll get the urge one day to shift. But why should I? I’m all right. I've got a nice little place of my own, all my own interests and friends.

Woods:

What is your house like, Rose?

Hawkins:

Oh, quite ordinary. Quite a nice little place - in a country place. What I always would have liked. Living in London all my life, I always used to think it would be nice to, you know, get down into the country and retire and all that. Now I’ve got just what I wanted. I’ve no desire for anything else. I suppose, in a way, that’s not a good thing. I don’t know. People tell me you should always be ambitious, but I ain't ambitious. I’m quite happy with my own little place.

Woods:

Have you got a garden, Rose?

Hawkins:

I have, and it suits me down to the ground, and I grow my own flowers, and I never pick one.

Woods:

You don’t?

Hawkins:

No, I let them stay in their own natural surroundings, and I get the greatest happiness and joy in just looking after them and watching them. They never seem to die.

Greene:

You told us that in your last tape, Rose.

Hawkins:

Did I?

Greene:

[You said] it wasn't quite the thing to do, to pick the flowers.

Hawkins:

Well, I suppose on your side it's rather different, for various reasons. But, I don't know, it seems to me now rather wicked to pick the pretty flowers. I mean, let them stay where they are in their natural surroundings, as they were intended.

Greene:

They are life, aren’t they?

Hawkins:

Of course they are. They’ve got vitality and life of their own.

Woods:

Do you visit many places, Rose?

Hawkins:

Oh, occasionally. I’m not one for gadding about. I don’t mind going out occasionally, to see friends of mine and having a natter. But I’ve no desire for all this gallivanting about that goes on with some of them. Some of them stay for a while and then, next thing you know they’re off. Never see ’em again - they’ve gone somewhere else, some other place. Not for me!

Greene:

You’re contented?

Woods:

Have you got neighbours Rose?

Hawkins:

I am. Some people say it’s a bad thing to be contented, but I can’t see that. I think it’s a bad thing to be discontented.

Woods:

Uh, Rose...

Hawkins:

And yet people say, if you’re not discontented, you never get on, you never get anywhere, you know. Perhaps I’ll get the urge to move, and yet, I don’t see why I should give up what I’ve already got for something I don't know much about - or nothing about, for that matter.

People come and talk to me sometimes, you know, about different places and 'spheres' as they call them. It all sounds very nice but I don’t feel educated up to it yet. I’m happy where I am.

Woods:

What’s your bungalow like, could you describe it?

Hawkins:

Could I what?

Woods:

Your bungalow. You said it was a... is it a house or...?

Hawkins:

Well, it's a sort of small place. It’s a country surrounding. It’s got four rooms, quite enough for me to look after. Funny thing is though, you never get dirt. You know, you never get any dust. You don’t have to go around swabbing the place all the time with a duster. It always seems to keep nice.

But there again, do you know what people tell me? I can’t get over this you know. I still don’t quite understand it. They say you only get dirt and dust in your place if your mind’s wrong! Well my mind, I don't know, I don't think I've got a bad mind at all. I think, I think on the right lines as best I can. I always wish everyone well and if I can do anything to help anyone... when I was on your side I was just the same.

But over here, I've heard it said among people, that it's only when you... when your mind's bad and dirty that you get dirt in your house and dirt in your place, you know. In other words, if you think wrong, you get wrong things. That's probably why I'm so contented. I've got nothing to worry about. I'm quite happy.

I've never felt better in my life. I look years younger. I can walk - which I do a lot of walking into the countryside. [It] appeals to me. I love to watch the animals and the birds and I just like to take an interest in everything and be part of everything and yet, at the same time, there's none of this here business with us, you know, like there is on your side, people always feel they must interfere with nature. Not me.

I’m quite content to let everything grow and do what it wants to, and nothing seems to interfere with anything or anybody. Everybody seems to be in tune, harmony and nature's the same. The birds don't... um, I mean, the birds come into the garden. They are as tame as tame, and, um, nobody feels they want to destroy anything. That’s the marvellous part about it.

Woods:

Yes, very nice...

Hawkins:

And they talk about moving. Well, I suppose it’s all right for some highbrow people who want to get on in a different way, you know. But, I’m happy as I am. Why should I move? People are always on to me about I should make, you know, sort of, start thinking about making changes, but I can’t get it myself.

Greene:

Rose, you said...

Hawkins:

Eh?

Greene:

Rose...

Flint: [Sniffing]

Greene:

...you said in your last tape that you hadn’t seen any sea. Now, have you seen any since we’ve been...?

Hawkins:

I ain't seen no sea, and I don’t particularly want to see any sea. I remember in the old days when I was on your side, I used to occasionally have a day out [to] Southend or somewhere. That's as far as I ever got. I didn't... well I suppose perhaps it is I was never keen on the sea myself.

My friends used to like to go out for the day - I occasionally went with them in the old charabanc and all that. But, I don't know, sea don't appeal to me. Perhaps I'm not an adventurous type? I've never seen no sea here. I shouldn't think it was necessary.

Woods:

Do you still go to the lakes? You said. The lakes and...?

Greene:

With the boats on them...

Hawkins:

Oh yes, I’ve been to the lakes. I like that because it’s calm and placid. There’s none of the rough stuff you know. Ah... the sea was never one of my things.

Woods:

Do you ever go in the cities? When I asked you said there were cities.

Hawkins:

Oh, there are big towns, as you would call them, or cities. Occasionally, yes. But... it’s all so different. I mean, you don’t see shops.

Woods:

No.

Greene:

When you go into the cities...

Hawkins:

There’s nothing to go for unless you’re really the city type. If you want to be among a lot of people, then I suppose automatically you, sort of, feel it’s necessary to be in a city. But I wanted peace and quiet and I've got it.

Woods:

No neighbours around? Any neighbours around?

Hawkins:

Oh, there are people, naturally, who live around and about, who are very much the same as myself in outlook. Probably that’s why they’re there and I’m there with them. But, um, we get together occasionally and we... we’re happy in our own way and we do the sort of things that appeal to us. Some people seem to think that all the time you've got to be 'on the go'.

Well I think the trouble was on Earth I was always on the go - that was my trouble. Always on the damn go. Never had a minute to myself to call my own. Well now I'm quite happy to... to relax and be quiet and I’ve learned to read - a thing I couldn’t do much when I was on your side. I’ve learned my ABC and what have you, and now I can read and I get books. And there are people who bring me books, and I sometimes am able to let them have some of mine. And we sit, and we talk and we read.

And, um, I know this’ll surprise you, but I’ve even been to the pictures. I didn’t mind the place... go to the pictures when I was on your side, and sometimes I go with a few friends and we go into the nearest town, what you'd call a town...

Greene:

Yes.

Hawkins:

...and we can see pictures. And you can see all sorts of pictures too.

Greene:

Very interesting. What sort of... can you describe some of these pictures?

Hawkins:

Oh yes. You can see things, for instance, that you saw on your side - pictures that you were very fond of. And, um, of course there are other things that you can see, but a lot of them have a, sort of, moral, I suppose you’d call it, and they’re very interesting and they're very helpful.

Of course [there are] certain things which still puzzle me, um... for instance, they tell me that everything that has been of any value or given people happiness, in the right sense, still exists over here. Well that's true as far as I can tell, because all the things that really meant anything to me on your side, certainly do exist here - and they're very real. They're not something you just, sort of, dream up you know, you don't sit and think about something and 'there it is'. It's a reality. It's just as real to me, for instance, if I want to sit down quiet and pick up a book and read or even make myself a cup of tea.

I mean, people just don't get the idea at all, from what I can make out of it, on your side. They seem to think that we ought to be in some peculiar state of existence where we are all very religious.

Greene:

Yes.

Hawkins:

Well I was never one for religion myself. I had respect of it, within reason, and I met one or two very nice religious people, but I also met awk... uh... very nice people who weren't religious. In fact, they used to swear and curse like mad! But if the time came anyone wanted any help, they were the first there.

The point is, that here, it seems to me, you live in a sense of life that is not exactly religious, it is much more real. I mean, I can't explain it, but it's marvellous, you know.

Greene:

Mmm...

Woods:

What are the fields and things like in your... there? Are they very beautiful or is...

Hawkins:

Are they what?

Woods:

Fields, you know, the...

Hawkins:

Oh yes, gorgeous. Gorgeous. Very beautiful green grass we have, and I know it will surprise you if I tell you, we have corn fields...

Woods:

You do?

Greene:

Oh.

Hawkins:

And we don't... yet the funny thing is, you know, we don’t have seasons. Not in the same sense that you do. For instance, I’ve never seen any of what I would call rain.

Woods:

You haven’t? No rain?

Hawkins:

And I’ve never known it to be really dull. And neither have I known it to be overly hot. It’s always very pleasant. Nice, pleasant, warm atmosphere. And yet I’ve never seen the sun. So I don’t think our illumination and light can be from the sun, because I’ve never seen it.

Greene:

Um...Rose, is the grass the same as ours, or is it a finer texture?

Hawkins:

Well, it’s springy underfoot and it’s very, very nice and beautiful... beautiful green. And of course there are many little flowers that grow and many big flowers too. In fact, I have been to places where the flowers are so high that - oh, I should think they’re a good seven or eight feet high. It’s like walking through a forest of them.

Woods:

Is it really? But anyway, Rose, what do they do with the corn? Do they cut it, or do they do anything with it at all?

Hawkins:

Well no, it don’t seem to be... I don’t know, I’ve never seen it cut...

Woods:

No?

Hawkins:

...and yet it always seems to be there.

Greene:

You haven't seen bread made from it, have you?

Hawkins:

No, and that’s another funny thing. Of course, I don’t feel the urge to eat. I did when I first came here, but it was mostly fruit and that sort of thing that one had. But, um, I suppose it is that as you lose the desire for something, you realise it ain't so important, then it ceases to exist for you. But, um, I was a one for my cup of tea, and I still like it and have it.

Now, I suppose, people will say where do you get your tea from? Do you get it from... from some place on your side? Well, of course, it must come from some place on this side, so it must be grown and it must be, sort of, made, mustn’t it?

Woods:

How do you, uh... do you sort of think...

Flint: [Clears throat]

Woods:

... you want a cup of tea, and you get it, if you want it?

Hawkins:

Well, it’s a funny thing though. You know, I’m not conscious - for instance, I don’t go into a kitchen and put a kettle on....

Woods / Greene:

No.

Hawkins:

... and make myself a cup of tea, in that sense. But if I feel the need for a cup of tea... well, all I can say is, that it’s there.

Woods:

It's there for you?

Hawkins:

Yes.

Woods:

Well, that’s very nice.

Hawkins:

Of course, some people say, and even people over here, have said that it’s, uh... not a reality. It’s only because I think it’s necessary I have it, and it’s made possible. But when I lose the desire for a cup of tea, which, um, I’ve been used to having all my life, uh, when I lose the desire for it, it will no longer exist for me. Because that's a - and I’ll tell you the honest truth - that’s one of the reasons why I’m afraid of going too far.

Because, you know, some of these people, they get this idea and 'bee in their bonnet', they want to make progress, as they call it. Well I'm all for progress in the right sense, but then again, if you keep on going on and on, and you keep losing the old idea of things and desire for certain things, well, it seems to me that, uh, well, it won't be the same.

I sort of feel, well here I am in my own environment, which 'suits me down to the ground' you might say, and, you know, I mean, I'm really happy and why should I change it? Why should I suddenly say to myself, well I don't want this and I don't want that, but I want this and I want that.

I'd rather stick to the things I know I've got and which I enjoy and I'm happy in and do no one no... no one no harm, than go on to something which I'm not sure of and I really don't know much about. I don't want to be, sort of, too, sort of, far - I don't know - from the things which mean reality to me, anyway.

Greene:

Mmm...

Hawkins:

Of course it's a bit bewildering. I must admit myself sometimes I find it a bit bewildering, you know.

Greene:

Still?

Hawkins:

Oh yes. I do.

Woods:

The flowers and the trees and things... do they flower there or the...?

Hawkins:

Oh yes, the trees are beautiful...

Woods:

They are?

Hawkins:

...really beautiful and the blossom on some of the trees is beautiful. And the perfume. Oh, the scent is marvellous!

Woods:

And you have, uh, beautiful music that side, don’t you?

Hawkins:

Oh yes. And I’ve been to lots of concerts and things. Beautiful. Beautiful music. Not highbrow, but nice, you know.

Woods:

Yes.

Hawkins:

Not jazzy muck, you know, like you have down on your side, but pleasant stuff, you know. Real nice. Don’t hear much religious music. It used to give me the pip sometimes.

Woods:

Yes.

Greene: [Laughing]

It does me too!

Woods: [Laughing]

Hawkins:

I mean, all that, um, Onward Christian Soldiers and There Is A Green Hill and all that. It used to be so depressing!

Woods:

Yes.

Greene:

Most depressing.

Hawkins:

You know, but, um, nice music. I like good religious music. I used to like The Holy City and all that sort of stuff you know. Good stuff.

Greene

Yes.

Woods:

Do you go to concerts where they sing?

Hawkins:

[Of] course, I've got lovely clothes to wear.

Woods:

You have?

Greene:

Rose, I wanted to ask you...

Hawkins:

Oh smashing. Beautiful clothes.

Greene:

Rose, you said you did needlework. Do you make any of your clothes?

Hawkins:

Yes, I do. I’ve made quite a few things, and people bring me material. A very nice gentleman I’ve met over here - oh he is a nice man. He’s a bit highly...you know, sort of, placed, like - but he visits. He visits some of my friends too. And he comes... he never comes empty-handed. Oh, very generous, very nice he is. I always feel a bit embarrassed really, because I think, now what the devil can I give him?

But he always seems to bring something. It’s not so long ago he brought me a beautiful piece of stuff, it really was lovely. A lovely shade of blue it was, just the colour I like, you know.

Greene:

Lovely.

Hawkins:

And he said, 'That’s for you, Ma,' he says. 'That will make you a nice outfit,' you know. And I thanked him of course and asked if he'd like a cup of tea. Of course, I knew damn well he'd say no, because he... you know, he's got past it, like. Not like me! But I... you know, you don't know what to offer some of these people when they come, 'cause they don't want nothing!

You know, that's another thing, you know, when you think about it...on Earth, everybody seems to want something. If they come and call on you, you feel, oh, you must ask them to...have a cup of tea or something. But no one ever seems to want anything here - at least not the people that call on me. The majority of them don't anyway.

Always... I don't know, always giving and never taking. Mind you, I like to give too. I've given a lot of stuff away. I'm only too glad to do it.

Greene:

Mmm...

Woods:

When you walk out in the country do you see animals and [life in the fields]?

Hawkins:

Oh, I’ve seen animals in the fields, of course I have.... Yes and I ain't scared of them. Oh, I tell you a laugh - when I was on your side, get me in the country, I absolutely loved the country. Didn't often get there, but, I was so scared of the animals.

Greene:

Were you?

Hawkins:

Ooh! Scared?

Greene:

What - little rabbits?

Hawkins:

You wouldn't get me to go... oh no, not rabbits! But you wouldn't get me to go across a field because of them cows and things, you know.

Greene: [Laughing]

Hawkins:

But over here they’re as gentle...oh, they are nice.

Woods:

They are?

Hawkins:

Yes, and they... it’s almost as if they can talk to you. It's almost as if you know what they are thinking. Really, it's quite, quite marvellous, you know, when you come to think about it. Of course, I could never stand them creepy, crawly things like frogs and things, you know. I haven’t seen none of those.

Greene:

[You haven't got those on your side?]

Hawkins:

But I’m told as they’re on a very low vibration or whatever it is. I don’t know what they mean... what they mean, but they don’t exist here. I'm not [unintelligible], but I wouldn't like frogs and [those] sort of things. And I haven’t seen nothing like gnats and flies.

Woods:

Have you horses there too?

Hawkins:

I’ve seen butterflies though, that’s strange.”

Greene:

I bet they’re lovely ones too?

Hawkins:

Oh, lovely. Beautiful. But I’m told that, um, they don't...there again, they don't, evidently, die.

Funny business here - you don’t die, you know. Nothing dies. I... when I first came here, I thought... once I settled in that was... I thought, well, how long is this going to last?

You know, I wondered if it was a sort of... another sort of life where you go on for so many years and you get antique again, you know, and then you kick the bucket, you've had it, and wonder if there is anything beyond that - but there's no dying here.

Greene:

No.

Hawkins:

It’s most peculiar. It seems as if you can go on and on and on, and then, when you get browned off, or fed up, or think you know all there is to know or all you want to know of where you are, then you can, sort of, just, sort of go off into a kind of sleep or something, and then you go on to a different...

Of course, I’m scared stiff of that, in a way. I don’t want to go, you know. A lot of my friends say that I should, but I can’t see any sense in it. Why should you give up what you've got, what you know, when you're happy in it, then take on something that you don't know? I don't want to be la-di-da. I'm quite happy as I am.

Woods:

You said your hair was long, the last time...

Hawkins:

Oh yes, like it was before I had it cut, you know.

Woods:

Yes.

Hawkins:

Not that I ever had it really 'bobbed' or anything like that, but I did have it... shorn a bit!

Greene:

Yes.

Hawkins:

That got me into trouble that did.

Woods:

Oh yes?

Greene: [Laughing]

Hawkins:

That's another story that is... oh! I told you.

And I don't see my 'old man' much now, did I tell you?

Greene:

No. Haven't you got your husband...?

Hawkins:

No. Oh, no.

Greene:

Oh...

Hawkins:

[Oh, we didn't hit it off]

Woods:

Rose, now...

Hawkins:

I have to laugh now. Things have changed and I've been several times back to your side, gone round the old parts, you know; Piccadilly and all that. [Of] course it's all changed down Charing Cross. My old pitch has gone.

Greene:

Yes.

Hawkins:

Oh, they have made alterations there. It isn't the same is it?

Greene:

You've been to Covent Garden?

Hawkins:

Yes, I have been. I don't know, London's not the same. It don't... don't seem the same to me at all. All the atmosphere seems to be gone. And as for the youngsters today - I can't make head nor tail of them!

Woods:

You often come back to London, do you?

Hawkins:

Eh?

Woods:

You come back to London and [see people]?

Hawkins:

Oh, occasionally. I have look round sometimes, but I'm getting a bit fed up [of that]. I can't see much point in it. One time, you couldn't keep me away from it. When I first came over here, I was always coming back; seeing the old haunts and friends and what have you... But it seems to me, it's all changed. Can't feel the pull no more.

Greene:

Rose, when you first passed over, how... what were your reactions? How did you find yourself?

Hawkins:

Well, I don't know, I suppose like a good many of them I was a bit bewildered. I found myself in a very happy surrounding, and all that. The place was alright. I couldn't jib about that and [the] people were very nice. But, of course, it wasn't what I'd been used to, it wasn't what I'd expected – if I'd expected anything that is. I used to sort of drift between the two; your side and this.

Greene:

Mmm...

Hawkins:

Until I sort of, sorted myself out and got settled in and began to appreciate it all, you know. Of course, I was always a proper dabster for... for the old West End, you know. I suppose it's born in me, I've always been used to it. But as I say, it isn't the same. I don't know what they're doing to the place! It ain't anywhere near where like it used to be. All the old atmosphere's going, ain't it? [It's] getting more and more... American, I suppose. You know, all these big buildings and... I don't know - perhaps it's just me?

Because I remember the old Hansom cabs and all the good old days, the horse-drawn buses and then of course we had the [old generals] and that, didn't we?

Greene:

Yes.

Woods:

Rose...

Hawkins:

Oh, times have changed. Yes dear?

Woods:

...the colours in the sky - the colouring, you said before, was very beautiful?

Hawkins:

Oh, well, the sky's always, sort of, having changes. We see the most beautiful colours. Of course, colour's marvellous here. Oh, you've seen nothing like it!

You know, when you two come over here and get up your place on your side, you won't half see some sights. You won't half have a good time. [Of] course, I suppose you'll go somewhere a bit higher than me.

Woods:

Well, I don't know...

Greene:

Not necessarily Rose...

Hawkins:

Well, I don't know - you're both educated and you've learned a lot, ain't you?

Greene:

That's nothing to do with it.

Hawkins:

I don't mean in schooling and that, so much as, you know, you know a lot, don't you? And you do a lot of good work don't you? Oh I think you're nice, you know, the way you've gone about things. I've watched you, how you've got on and all the rest of it.

Are you settled now Mr George?

Greene: [Laughing]

Woods:

I don't know...

Hawkins:

About time, you know. You're not like me. You're a restless sort, you're always chopping and changing. When you get here I don't suppose you'll stay anywhere long!

Woods:

Anyway, I want to come and see you Rose.

Hawkins:

Eh?

Woods:

I want to see you...

Hawkins:

Oh, well you'll come and have a cup of nice tea and we'll have a natter mate!

Woods:

I will.

Greene:

Thank you Rose.

Hawkins:

I'll be really pleased to see you.

Woods:

Have you met the Reverend Thomas... Drayton Thomas? He came through once...

Hawkins:

Oh him? Oh, I remember him. He used to... ah, yes I saw a lot of him at one time. I haven’t seen him lately. Have you seen much of him?

Woods:

No. I haven't...

Hawkins:

Oh, I used to at one time. He used to call on me when he first came over. No, I think he’s probably gone on, you know.

You know, I'm always [unintelligible] about the... because in a way it's funny, you know - because on Earth we used to say, 'oh, poor old so-and-so; she’s gone you know.' And over here, it’s much the same, because someone will come along and say, 'oh, what do you think, so-and-so has gone on, you know?' Of course, that means they’ve gone on a bit, you know.

Greene:

To another sphere?

Hawkins:

Yes. Oh, I’ve lost a few of my friends like that. They’ve gone on. But, I don’t know - as I say, I’m staying put.

Woods:

Yes. You're quite happy where you are.

Greene:

Yes.

Hawkins:

Oh I suppose it's... I don't know perhaps...

Woods:

Is there horses there Rose?

Hawkins:

Eh?

Woods:

Horses, Rose?

Hawkins:

Yes, beautiful. Lovely horses.

Woods:

Can you ride, Rose?

Hawkins:

Oh, not me.

Woods:

No?

Hawkins:

You get me on a horse?

Greene: [Laughing]

Hawkins:

Oh, blimey mate. No you couldn’t get me on one. I’m very fond of them at a distance. Bit scared of horses I am. Always was.

Greene:

Rose, you said, uh...

Hawkins:

Fancy... You won't see me galloping on a horse!

What did you say Miss Betty?

Greene:

You said you helped children, younger children... Have you come across my mother at all?

Hawkins:

Your mother dear? No I haven't.

Greene:

Oh. She helped young people. I just wondered.

Hawkins:

No. I wouldn't know your mother dear. Perhaps one day I might have the pleasure of being introduced.

Greene:

Well I'm sure she'd love to meet you.

Woods:

What are the towns like, uh, Rose? Could you describe some of them?

Hawkins:

Oh, beautiful, I must say - not that I live in one, but they are beautifully laid out, I will say that. Beautiful gardens and all sorts of parks and places for the children especially. And all kinds of buildings - big places where they have lectures, and libraries with books and things and places where you can be entertained... um, oh, very nice. Nothing, uh, common. Nothing, uh, cheap and nasty. All real nice, classy stuff, but entertaining you know.

Oh, I’ve been to one or two of the theatres here, seen plays. Seen lots of famous people that I used to read about, but I never went much to the theatre. Couldn’t afford it. Occasionally I’d go up in the gallery and see one or two of the old stars. Oh, I’ve seen quite a few here... a lot of them still do the same kind of work. But it's beautiful, you know. I've seen all sorts of stuff here you know. Lovely.

Woods:

Are the towns colourful?

Hawkins:

Yes, beautiful, uh, colourful, yes. But...um, depends what you mean, colourful. I don’t mean to say the houses or the buildings are all painted red, white and blue.

Woods:

No, no, no.

Hawkins:

You know, but, um...

Woods:

But architecture and...?

Hawkins:

Oh, it’s very nice and very varied, you know. All kinds.

Woods:

Oh yes?

Hawkins:

All kinds.

Greene:

What does the stone look like? Does it look like...

Hawkins:

Well, the stone looks, I don’t know... like mother-of pearl to me.

Greene:

Oh, how gorgeous!

Hawkins:

You would almost think it was made of mother-of pearl.

Greene:

That's lovely.

Hawkins:

You get all sorts of lovely shades. Not all the same, but some of them are.

Greene:

The pavement is like that too - what we call the pavement? Made of the same kind of stone, is it?

Hawkins:

Well, it is kind of stone-looking, but I don’t know whether it is stone. Of course, there’s, um... the other thing is, there’s no traffic! 

Which is marvellous really, when you come to think of it, I suppose. You don’t get any cars, no motorcycles and nothing like that. People are all content to walk. Nobody rides. There's no need for it. No effort in walking here.

Woods:

No. But if you want to go a distance, you go by thought do you, Rose?

Hawkins:

I don’t know whether you go by thought exactly. No. I suppose it is that you can sort of feel that you want to go to a certain place...

Greene:

And find yourself there?

Hawkins:

...and you find yourself there. No effort.

Woods:

No. Have you woods over there? You know, lovely woods?

Hawkins:

I expect there are a lot of your relations are here, yes.

Flint: [Laughing]

Woods:

Ah, no. I meant woods: trees...

Hawkins:

I know what you mean, dear. I was just pulling your leg!

All: [Laughing]

Hawkins:

Yes, of course. There's lovely woods. Beautiful.

Woods:

Mmm...

Hawkins:

Oh, it’s a wonderful place. No one need fear dying. It’s something everyone should look forward to and realise that - unless they’ve got something terrible in their mind... on their mind or in their background, you know... Of course, I suppose everyone’s got some skeleton in their cupboard. But the average person's got nothing to worry about coming over here.

I mean, even the very wicked - well, from what I’ve heard of it - but, although it’s very sad, and probably, in a sense, very bad for them. 

But they don’t get lost, poor dears. They’re helped and guided and eventually they 'come out of the dark', you might say.

Oh, the average person’s got nothing to worry about. Oh, I mean, I wasn’t particularly good and I wasn’t particularly bad. But I must say, I’ve done quite well for myself, and that’s why I don’t want to change. All this business of chopping and changing - people have a mania for it. Some people don’t know when they’re well off, do they?

Greene:

You're now living a life, Rose, that you always wanted to live.

Hawkins:

Yes, I am.

Greene:

Yes, that's right.

Hawkins:

And that’s why I don’t feel disposed to make any change.

Woods:

You’re very happy where you are Rose.

Greene:

Yes.

Hawkins:

Yes, very happy. Well, I must go. Anyway, look after yourselves. And I’m glad of all the good work you’re doing. And, um... take care of yourselves now.

Greene:

Do come and see us again.

Hawkins:

I certainly will, Betty dear. All the best to you George.

Woods:

It's so nice of you to come through.

Hawkins:

Bye, bye.

Greene:

Goodbye Rose... thank you very much.

Woods:

Thank you Rose for coming through.

END OF RECORDING

This transcript was created for the Trust by K.Jackson-Barnes - January 2020

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