The Leslie F​lint​ Tr​ust

Read the full transcript below as you listen...

Present:

Communicators:
Mickey, Helena Blavatsky, Florenz Ziegfeld, Jock, Frédéric Chopin.

Gwen Vaughan:

This tape recording is not a complete full-length recording of the original séance. Part of the séance was personal to Mrs Creet, and only the general and interesting remarks have been re-recorded for replay to the public.

There are three communicators upon this tape; Florenz Ziegfeld, a Scotsman named Jock and Frédéric Chopin. All the three voices come immediately one after the other and carry on with the same subject matter.

Mickey:

Old Sam tells it pretty well, really don't he?

Rowlinson:

He does, doesn't he?

Creet:

Oh yes, he really speaks beautifully, very lucidly.

Mickey:

What's that mean?

Creet:

Clearly.

Mickey:

Oh, does it?

Creet:

Mmm.

Rowlinson:

[Laughter]

Do you know [unintelligible] Mick?

Mickey:

Ah yes, well his friends got well on the road now.

Rowlinson:

Oh, is he? Oh good.

Creet:

I'd like to know more about Sam, Mickey. He's a dear...

Mickey:

Ha ha! He'll tell you more about himself when he feels it's necessary.

Rowlinson:

Yes, I expect he will.

Mickey:

# I was not responsible! #

Rowlinson:

[Laughter]

Creet:

What?

Flint:

Ha!

Rowlinson:

I was not responsible, he said.

Creet:

About what darling?

Oh, I know.

Mickey:

Pardon?

Creet:

What you were referring to.

[Laughing]

[Pause]

Mickey:

Pity.

Creet:

Yes. [Loud laughter].

Where were you?

Mickey:

[Sigh] I wasn't there. I don't know why you think it was me.

Creet:

No, no darling. Of course, not [Laughter].

I knew it wasn't you.

[Pause]

Blavatsky:

Don't lean forward Mr Rowlinson, relax!

Rowlinson:

Sorry.

Blavatsky:

Thank you.

Flint:

Were you leaning forward, Les?

[Short silence]

Flint:

[Sighs]

[Silence until 3:00]

Ziegfeld:

Hallo.

Creet:

Hello?

Ziegfeld:

Can you hear?

Creet:

Yes, Flo.

Rowlinson:

Hello.

Ziegfeld:

Very good.

Creet:

You're very clear.

Ziegfeld:

Thought I'd just pop in for a few minutes to have a little more experience with speaking to you. Can you hear alright?

Creet:

Yes, you're most persevering Flo. Good thing too.

Ziegfeld:

Oh yeah, I always was. I guess I wouldn't have made much headway on your side if I hadn't have been.

Creet:

[Laughing]

Ziegfeld:

Perseverance is...

Sitter:
[Coughing]

Ziegfeld:

...one of the most important things if you are going to do anything at all, in any way.

Creet:

Quite right, that's what you had on Earth.

Ziegfeld:

If you want to communicate you have to 'stick it out', you know, and keep on 'pushing away, pushing away...'

Creet:

[Laughing]

Ziegfeld:

I dunno, if only you could see all these people around here, I guess you would have plenty to talk about.

Creet:

Mmm. Tell us, if they can't all come through, but while you are here, you might as well tell us, uh, something of who are there, and so on.

Ziegfeld:

Well, I don't think I'd be far wrong if I said there's someone, at least one person, of every nationality and of every generation of time under the sun here.

Creet:

Mmm.

Ziegfeld:

You know...

Creet:

Yes?

Ziegfeld:

...the more one sees of life, the more one realises how much we have to learn. Even on this side. I realise there are souls who have been here centuries and centuries and centuries, who have progressed beyond any outward appearance of the physical body.

Yet, they still retain, you might say, uh, a personality. For it's the personality that you feel, and you sense - and, in a sense, you see. But you don't see that personality, you don't see that individual, if you like, in a physical outline or shape, but it's something that you are conscious of, and they are very highly evolved souls who have left behind completely and absolutely every condition of Earth every vestige of...vestige of the material life. They are completely and solely and wholly Spirit, and in consequence, their physical and outer organ...organism is completely gone.

Creet:

You mean to say you just only sense them, you can't see anything?

Ziegfeld:

Well, that may be, because I can't reach up to them and they can't manifest on my particular plane of mind and existence. No doubt if, in time, eventually, I'd rise sufficiently high they will become visible to me as human beings; that is, shall we say, as souls, as spirits, as people.

Whether they'll be exactly the same in shape, I doubt it. I don't know. But there's one thing I think that becomes very obvious to you here, when you've been here any time at all - or should I say to be more exact, you've made any real kind of progress - that you gradually notice that all the material, physical aspects that differentiate male from female gradually disappears, and you have in its stead a sexless individual or a sexless spirit with no real physical difference. I don't know if I am making this clear at all...?

Creet:

Yes, uh, I can...

Ziegfeld:

But, uh, I think when you get down to basic things, you realise that the outward physical shape of the human body is merely a matter of, well, you might almost say chance. Whether it's actually chance or not, I don't know, but whether you happen to be born one sex or the other, in a sense, is unimportant. It just happens. You grow up, you are either female or male or a mixture of the two.

But anyway, over here you begin to realise that there's a fusing, as it were; much more than ever on Earth, of male and female. There is a, uh, sort of, rejuvenation; I don't even know if that's even the word to use - but there is an awareness and awakening to the cosmic realities and the consciousness of life spiritual, which gradually takes away all the old earthly ideas regarding, uh, male or female and many of the things appertaining to, uh, sex on your side.

That doesn't necessarily happen at once; I'm quite sure it doesn't, it certainly didn't in my case and in many of my friends here. I know that they retain outwardly, identically the same appearance they had on Earth or possibly looking quite a bit younger. But, I do know that, through some of those I've linked up with and communed with, that there is, to all outward appearances, no sex.

Creet:

Yes...

Ziegfeld:

I don't know if I'm going to describe this at all well, but, the point is that, uh, you lose...

Creet:

You would lose certain emotions I suppose?

Ziegfeld:

Yeah, well everything becomes on a very, very highly, refined....status or stage or state of evolution, where love is the predominating factor. But it is a love that is completely and absolutely spiritual, where the old desires and the old physical conditions are lost. Of course, this may not happen to some for, oh, many, many centuries of time, as you term it.

Creet:

Mmm...

Then the organs of the body too...the organs of our body, for instance, all that must gradually disappear?

Creet:

Mmm...

Then the organs of the body too...the organs of our body, for instance, all that must gradually disappear?

Ziegfeld:

Yeah, yeah, but you see, I think someone may have told you, I don't know if I did about this before, that gradually all the internal organs disappear. For instance, when you first come here, you feel the desire to eat and drink, and you have those things, but gradually as the desire leaves you to eat, the desire leaves you to drink, so you find over the process of time, without any, sort of, perhaps inner consciousness at first, [that] certain organs gradually begin to disappear.

And you find, eventually, as you lose the desire to eat and drink, you, sort of, don't have the same, sort of, mental approach to things. So certain parts, as it were, of the body disappear. They have no longer any value or any use. So the same applies with physical organs; sex organs for instance.

Creet:

Yes, but for a certain time, there must be form, mustn't there?

Ziegfeld:

Oh yeah, yeah, I know that. I know, but what I'm trying to tell you is that...that as there's a gradual process of change in the mentality and a gradual change in the personality, gradual change in the character of the person. As the spiritual body begins to be affected by the mental and the emotional and the inner self - the soul if you like - so you get these changes gradually taking place. And you get to such a state that you cease to exist in a certain sphere or spheres. And you go into a much higher stage of being, [a] much higher state of life, where things are quite different, where you lose the outer shape as you understand it.

Creet:

Do you have to go through a certain form of death, shall we say, like we have to go through here?

Ziegfeld:

Yeah, yeah, in a way, yeah you do, but it's not the same kind of death. I don't know how to describe it to you...

Creet:

No, you’re...

Ziegfeld:

Look, if you can talk about the chrysalis and the butterfly, you've got some very vague idea of what I mean. As you progress and progress, you gradually find that the body that you've been using is of no longer any need or value to you, and you discard it. You go into a kind of mental coma, if you like, and you find when you come out of that state of coma, that you are without the body - which was a replica only of the physical body anyway in the first place - and you find that you have a much more purified and rarified form, though not in the form as you would know when on Earth. You see, the...the...the etheric body is an exact counterpart of the physical body, but that is not the real you, any more than your body today is the real you. It's only the covering; it's only the vehicle of the soul...

Creet:

Yes.

Ziegfeld:

...and it is the soul that goes on and on, not the etheric body. That may last perhaps for centuries of time, as you understand time, maybe thousands of years, because there are many phases of life, many spheres of activity. You retain your outward shape and form, perhaps for centuries. I know that in my case, I am sure a long way from getting to become a complete soul. I'm just at the moment, an individual who has progressed to a certain degree, but I know that I still retain all my outward appearance and shape as I was known on Earth and I guess that goes on for a hell of long time, because I know there's a lot I got to learn.*

Creet:

[Laughing]

Ziegfeld:

But I do know eventually, same as these people that we don't see, but we know; we sense, if you like. I don't know how to put it. But we have mediums here, in a sense, like you have mediums in your world, who are highly rarified beings, who are in a position - though not to go over there themselves; that is, to the very high stages of being - they are able to receive a certain amount of information and help, which they pass on to us who are less fortunate and not so highly developed.

Every phase, every stage of humanity, has to be reached, best or worst, through the lower and the higher. Every individual passes through stages; you're passing through a stage now, and when you come here you'll pass through a process of change. You'll go on, and you'll live very much a similar sort of life in some ways; that is, you'll have the same mental reactions, no doubt for quite a while, regarding love and affection. You'll have the same, perhaps, even passions.

Physical love exists on this...this side. It's not something that is discarded immediately. It's not something that's looked down upon. It's something that's quite natural. You still have the same mental attitude to certain things, and while those things are important, while those things are vital, you still have that ability to carry on the same way. There is no disgrace in that. No one can suddenly become a complete, perfected soul. You have to go through all these different conditions and stages.

Children are born over here too on certain spheres, and those children are very beautiful because they're born, uh, of the mind and of the soul and of the spirit. They're born, as it were, of love and although the physical...if I can use such a word, the psychic bodies are used to procreate the child in union, and yet there isn't the contamination, as it were, of the real material essence or part. You know, there are so many things we can't explain, but the point is, it's very difficult.

We should really divide, I suppose, every plane into many sections, that might help. But it's very difficult. What one person may tell you, like our friend who just spoke about the house on the mists, uh, that was his experience. But that was because he'd only reached a certain development - certain stage. In fact, you might almost...say, in his initial case, he hadn't reached very far at all, but he had to bridge the gulf for himself; it was something that he had to do.

But his reception, once he had desired help and guidance and upliftment, it made it easier for his friends to help him. Gradually he was led on. But there are some people, when they first come here, because they led exemplary lives on your side; they make a much greater progress, and their reception is quite different, and their experiences are different.

But, as I say, everyone that comes can only tell his own story in his own way, and although there may be differences in a way, gradually you find that it all dovetails in and it all tallies. It's like a jigsaw puzzle; every little bit is important to the whole.

Creet:

Yes, that should make all the stories very, very interesting, all the variable ones.

Ziegfeld:

Yeah, they will be most interesting, I know that. But you have to be very patient, you know. Because, you know, it is not easy coming to talk to you people. It is not easy for us to form words to depict things we want to give you, you know. Whatever we tell you, I want you to realise it can only be just a glimpse of what we try to convey. We got to bring it down to material language, and much must be lost. But we do our best, you know.

Creet:

Those glimpses would help us all a great deal.

Ziegfeld:

What I want you to know, above everything else, is that whatever your life has been on Earth, whether it has been very good, very bad, or not so bad, like most people, there is a chance. There is a home, there is a hope, and above all, there is a love that will sustain you, that will help you, that will guide you, that will uplift you and save you.

There're so many friends here of all degrees, all conditions and stages of development. They are always ready to give a helping hand to the newcomers. No one need fear dying, no matter what his condition is. For in the end, eventually, there's a path. No matter if it's some poor soul who did some pretty grim things, maybe there were some redeeming features in himself, maybe there was something way back in his history, in his parent's history maybe, that set a seed that, well, made him do certain things that were pretty wrong - probably very wrong.

But there's always a love, there's always a power, and there's always a way for every one of God's children. No one is denied who asks for help, for once there is a redeeming desire, you might say, within one's self, then you are on the right road. It may not be an easy road, may be a difficult road for some, but you are never alone, the same as the friend that was mentioned to you who was lost in the mists. That condition of mist was created by the thoughts, the evil thoughts, the bad thoughts of untold numbers of souls who created it from your world. All around your world there is a [land?] of mist. It hovers over the Earth like a black pall.* Some people, when they leave your world, pass right through it without even knowing it's there, because their minds and their lives have been elevated to such an extent they couldn't be conscious of its existence.

There are many to whom that fog is a reality and they wallow or they hover in it for quite a while. And sometimes, as they're coming up to us, they find it easier to get down to you. And they hover around your world rather than merge into this condition of depression and fog around you and the Earth, and they impinge themselves on the minds and mentalities of weak people.

That's why you have to be strong in your world. You have to learn to overcome yourself. You have to learn to overcome the things in yourself that you know are bad, that are wrong. And that's why it's important that you should have courage, faith, and you should have within yourself enough love for all humanity. No matter who the individual is, you should have some sympathy, try to have some understanding. For as you give out kind thoughts, as you give out love, as you give out sympathy, so you're helping not only the individuals concerned, but yourself, and also those who are earthbound around your world, and believe me there are many.

If only you could see them, and if you could see the kind of places they haunt, you would not go near any one of them. You take the man who was a drunkard; he haunts sometimes the places which were habitual to him when on Earth. He sees his old cronies and his companions standing at the bar having another one, and often he gets a great satisfaction and enjoyment out of that. And you find that the vices and the lower part of himself enters, as it were, into the physical organism of the friend or person, whoever it may be, in the Earth condition, and then you get influences set to work. You know, you look in your papers and you read, don't you? Someone has been attacked, perhaps some young girl's been attacked, and the next night you read about another one. Perhaps the next night you need to read about three or four more.

Well, that's the kind of condition which arises because it affects the minds of others. It impinges itself upon the weak mentality. And perhaps someone here, who, in a moment of foolishness and madness, committed a murder. He may hover around and impinge his thoughts upon someone else with a weak mentality and a like nature, and someone else does the same deed.

You'll always find, in your world, that one deed sets off a dozen others or more. Same as a war: it grows in its intensity and ferocity. Once you set, as it were, the ball rolling, it gathers speed, and it gathers to it, tremendous force and power. The higher the rate is, the greater the force behind it. You just don't know in your world what the power of thought is like. So it's important that when you think, you think right thoughts, so that you live right lives, and you do right things.

[Accent changes here]*

And I know that if you strive always to do your best, you can't go far wrong because there's plenty of good friends here, who come to you, to guide you, to help you, to uplift you, to share all your little problems, and your troubles and guide you on them, if they can. Life's to be lived, at the same time, there's a way of living it!

Creet:

Yes.

Jock:

Can you hear what I say?

Creet:

Oh, who? It's somebody else now.

Rowlinson:

Yes, it's a Scotch man.

Creet:

Oh, he's gone...Is it?

Rowlinson:

Yes, the voice suddenly changed.

Creet:

Yes, I know...

Jock:

Aye, it's alright, I'm only taking over now. Our other friend got tired, so I thought I'd take over for him, 'cause we are both on the same thought vibration, and I can quite easily pass over his thoughts.

Creet:

Oh, that's interesting!

Rowlinson:

That's a very smooth change-over.

Jock:

Aye. Can you hear now what I am talking about?

Rowlinson:

Oh yes, rather.

Creet:

Yes.

Jock:

Ah, that's good.

Rowlinson:

You've been before, haven't you?

Jock:

Aye, many a time in the past. I've been right close to the instrument many years now.

Rowlinson:

You have, you certainly...

Jock:

Aye, that's right. I remember you now laddie.

Rowlinson:

That's right...

Creet:

Jock? Oh do explain to me how that happened. Does he get tired or something?

Jock:

No. What you have to remember is...that we're all working together here and working on a mental plane, and it’s mind all the time. Whereas it's difficult for you to realise perhaps in your world, but it's more, in your world, physical, obviously. Here, it's mental.

Creet/Rowlinson:

Yes.

Rowlinson:

Could you explain something...

Jock:

We can transmit, as it were, all our thoughts through, and yet we can all have a go, and yet one can take over automatically from the 

other...

Creet/Rowlinson:

Yes.

Jock:

...all linking up together.

Creet:

Oh, this is the first time that it happened...

Jock:

Aye. Quite intriguing. Aye, there's a lot of things. You don't know nothing yet! Aye. We've got plenty of things up us sleeve for you! Aye, we've got all sorts of experiments too! I think this Friday night is gonna be one of the real...well, I think it's gonna be something even more than you can realise, but it's going take time.

Rowlinson:

Oh yes...

Jock:

Once we get on the right mental plane working with you in complete harmony and...ah, I know we can do some wonderful things.

Creet:

Ooh, I'm sure you can!

Jock:

Aye.

Creet:

Oh! We are absolutely...absolutely thrilled!

Jock:

You know, one of the greatest things is the realisation that we are exactly what we ourselves have made ourselves. And once we accept the fact that we are what we have created, not what someone else has done for us, but what we have made ourselves, it gives us great opportunity to make so much more of ourselves.

Often you hear people in your world say, 'I don't know...I don't know why some are able to this, and some are able to do that. I don't have a chance and yet they seem to get on much better than I do.' I know that sometimes things in your world seem very unequal, but there's a reason behind everything.

What you have to remember is, although you are an individual - or shall we say, you're forming yourself into an individual - to a great extent, you are reacting along a natural line peculiar to yourself and no one can affect you. Though you may have be born, shall we say, in better circumstances, there's no doubt about it, you'd have still followed that same, sort of, road.

You may not have done quite the same things, you might not have had the same social standard, as it were, but fundamentally, you still would have had the same intuitions, you'd still have the same sort of emotional reactions to people and circumstances. You'd have still been much the same personality, although your outward appearances would have been different in your circumstances. The whole point is, that you are what you are, what you are forming yourself. You have become what you are by your previous thoughts and actions.

You have no doubt in your own mind...you should have no doubt in your own mind, that you are separate individual, but that does not mean to say that you can afford to neglect or ignore the other individual or individuals around and about you. It does not also affect the fact that you are, to a certain extent, today are what circumstances made your parents. You know there is an old saying that the sins of the children...sins of the parents follow the children. Well that's not altogether correct, but there is a certain truth in it now.

Course, life is all fluidic. Life is not something that begins at birth and ends at death. Life goes on; life in its essence. And I want you all to remember I use the word 'essence'....life in its essence is a fluidic force or power which flows and flows continually through time and space having no beginning and no ending. But it may flow, as it must eventually, into a physical organism or body. That body becomes a house or a case,* but that small part of the individual's...that becomes the individual's spirit gradually begins to express itself, gradually begins to emerge as a personality, but it still is, in essence, part of the whole. Anyway, I don't know if you can quite follow what I am trying to get at?

Rowlinson:

Yes.

Creet:

Yes.

Rowlinson:

Yes, definitely.

Creet:

Yes, we can follow...

Jock:

You have to become a personality. You have to become a character before you can evolve separately from the essence.

Rowlinson:

Yes. Yes.

Creet:

Yes.

Jock:

Though the essence is there, it's like the small spark that is gradually flared into a tremendous flame.

Creet:

Yes.

Jock:

The physical house is merely the outer shell for a space of time in which it is able to live and express itself. But you may have many houses, not necessarily always on Earth, but many houses on this side, many etheric houses and many psychic houses, if you like to call them such. You go through spheres and spheres, plane and plane until you become part, once again, of the whole, but in such a force and such a way, that you are a tremendous vital essence, whereas previously, in the very early stages, you were merely just a speck in everything.

[Accent begins to change again]

The same as you must feel at times you are a speck in time in the material sense. So, in the early stages, you are but a speck in spiritual matter or spiritual time. You are merely, as it were, just the smallest grain of spiritual force or soul power. But eventually, as you evolve and evolve and evolve, you become, you expand, and you become a unit, you become an integral and important part of the whole. But to reach that stage of being and existence, to reach that magnificence, you have to go through all sorts of conditions and phases of life. You see?

Creet:

Mmm. Yes.

Now, who is that now? Is that you still, Jock?

Chopin:

I come, I'm very pleased to speak to you.

Creet:

Oh!

Chopin:

But it is a little difficult for me perhaps at the moment...

Creet:

Chopin?

Chopin:

...to express everything so clearly as my friends. But I just wanted you know I was here too, and, well, I can tell you in our own way later, things which were music for me...

Creet:

Oh, yes.

Chopin:

Because music is the basis, in a sense, of life. For vibration is life, vibration is music...

RECORDING ENDS

* At the time of this recording, Florenz Ziegfeld had only been 'dead' for 22 years.

* A pall = a layer, blanket or covering.

* The accent changes mid-sentence, from Ziegfeld's American voice, to the voice Jock, who is Scottish.

* a house or a case = housing or 'outer shell' for the spirit.

This transcript was created for the Trust by Simon Lovelock

and edited by K.Jackson-Barnes

With grateful thanks for additional work by Karyn Jarvie.